Level design vs 3d modelling

[Slythe]

A brief bit of backstory here...

I started off making levels for Duke Nukem, before moving my level design onto the likes of Half-Life and CounterStrike. Since then I went to University doing computer games development, where I got into 3D Max and almost completely stopped doing level design. I still dabble from time to time, but now my real drive is in modelling, although my heart remains with level design.

My question is, at what point do 3D modelling and level design become the same thing? there seems to be essentially 3 different titles in this field of game development, Artist, Environment Artist, and Level Designer, where does one stop and the other begin?

any stories from yourselves would be helpful.

[350kilotons]

From my perspective, when you want to make the static meshes used to provide higher detail features. This generally can't be done as easily with the standard BSP brushes most level editors provide. This may change with id's new engine, there was an intriguing demo at the latest mac expo thingy - videos on youtube.

[StJoris]

Well since BSP is not really the only option, 3d modeling can pretty much be used for level design. For example oblivion is completely modeled.

[Slythe]

Originally Posted by StJoris

Well since BSP is not really the only option, 3d modeling can pretty much be used for level design. For example oblivion is completely modeled.

That goes into the whole "environment artist" bracket. I know a lot of games companies use Maya for their levels, personally though i'm a 3d modeller in max, and a level designer when i use a dedicated program, ie hammer editor or the bf2 editor.

i'm struggling to know which path to take, maya, max or hammer/etc

[350kilotons]

Maya and Max are pretty interchangable. What you learn in one is easy to transfer to the other. Personally, I'd go for Max, as it's poly tools are better, and it generally seems to be the game-modeling application du jour.

[DJFreestyler]

There is one major issue here: a LEVEL DESIGNER is NOT an ARTIST. The name says it already, its a designer. Basically, you got three groups of developers in a game dev team: Designers, Artists and Coders. The designers think stuff up, the artists create the visual and audible experience and the coders put the action into it.

If you would work as a level designer, you would mainly be responsible for that: Designing the levels. And not designing as in drawing what it looks like, but designing the gameplay in a level. The level designer takes care of how the levels play, where are places of action, where are places of relative quiet, etc. He does not, except for the very global picture and the structure of the level, in any way decide what it is going to look like. That is what the artists are for. They decide what it is going to look like, with the environment artists creating most of that. They should do so while still communicating with the level designer so that everything comes together neatly. One game that showed how important level design is, was Doom 3. Because a lot of time was spent on how the levels played, like where the goodies were places and when monsters came, it greatly enhanced the gameplay.

So, to answer your question: They never should become the same thing. there is a fundamental difference between the two and if they ever become the same something is quite wrong (imo). Level Design ends where Environemnt Artist begins. That is, where design ends and (basically) modelling starts.

[Slythe]

yes, that's my point, they're not the same, but with recent developments in how games are made, the lines are getting blurred. Dedicated 3D programs such as maya and max are being used to create the whole level.

I'm currently a QA lead for a games company, and i'd like to get higher up the ladder fairly soon, into level design or art. Unfortunately at my current employers that's not an option, but i'd like to be able to say i can do both.

[StJoris]

Well I'm sure in small indie developer teams you will find more of a need for generalists that can do both if needed. With tools such as 3dsmax to me it seems perfectly possible to create rough layouts for levels.

[DJFreestyler]

Originally Posted by Slythe

yes, that's my point, they're not the same, but with recent developments in how games are made, the lines are getting blurred. Dedicated 3D programs such as maya and max are being used to create the whole level.

Not true. Yes, those programs are used to create the meshes of the levels. However, as the complexity of the games increases, so does the things needed in the levels, that are specific game objects. Things like particle systems, keypoints, encounters, spawning areas and all that. Things you cant just place in the level if you use max. Not unless you create almost an entire editor in it. Thus, you still need the external tools to put those objects in. As a level designer, you would be using your companies level editing program, not max, to create your levels. During that time the environment artist would create the level meshes, after which it is put together in the level editor. Then you can test it and adjust it, after which you start on the next level.

@StJoris: Sure, you can create rough layouts. However, as level designer, you would (should?) have been busy for a few days already on that level, before you would get to that stage. With (usually) just pen and paper. (Eeeew! pen & paper? Yes, pen & paper!) Also, bsp tools that are in several 3d engines (and the editors) are also great to create rough layouts, with the added advantage that you can test out your layout in-game.

[StJoris]

Thanks for the nice story, well we use max scripts to accomodate for such things, but I don't think that is common.